Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Thoughts on Atrocity...

(ok.. maybe that's a stretch for a title, but it'll do for lack of creativity at the moment)


Michelle, Hannah's mom, made a comment on Yahoo, since she can't comment on the blog from where she was, that my post ( see post below) seemed a little out of character for me.. a little brash.. harsh, or maybe too quickly posted in a moment of anxiety... all of which I surmise upon reflection is completely true, so for that I apologize.

However, I've seen SOOO many signs over the years, and especially recently, that reading that article on CNN seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back.

Yes, we live in America, home of the free, land of the brave, etc ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Yes, we respect the rights and liberties of others from all across the world, welcome them to OUR country, and share the bountiful things OUR country has to offer... the things we have spent generations building, creating, working for, fighting and dying for. It is with that spirit that I feel that it is completely unfair for people to start trying to usurp the foundations of this country, the foundation of our belief system, the traditions, cermonies of heritage, and priveleges that we consider our inalienable human rights to do.

When a Jew, a Muslim, an athiest, or any other member of any non-christian religion stands up and says "hey.. stop saying God in the school where my kid goes" or "hey, I don't want to have to see God on my currency because it offends me religiously" or "hey, take those christmas decorations off my kids school bus because you'll ruin the good non-christian upbringing of my children"... I can't help it.. i'm sickened. It's disgusting.

If a christian were to stand up and say "hey.. can we please take a moment to pray for the souls of those lost to (insert your disaster here)...." some radical parent freaks out that we're trying to instill Christian religious doctrine into the souls of their kids, thereby ruining their non-judeo belief structure.

Option A: Accept that you live in a country who has the word GOD written on its justice system, legal tender, and in its patriotic statement....

Option B: Get the hell out of my country you self-serving piece of dung and go some where that will persecute you like you belong.

Option C: Pick up a rifle, join the united states military, and come home with the RIGHT to have an opinion after you've seen what the rest of the world is like.

At the end of the day, my lifestyle and my actions often bely my belief structure, and someday I'll have to answer for that. When that time comes it will be between me and God to sort it out. However, inthe meantime I hate waking up in the morning and seeing people try to make this country like the one they or their ancestors fled from in the first place. That's why this country was founded in the first place.. we left that behind when we segragated our country and started our OWN heritage.. a heritage of pride, values, and justice that has led to the founding of one of the greatest countries this world has ever known.

I'm not a first, second, or even third generation american. My heritage is american back as far as I have been able to search it. Yes, we all came from SOMEWHERE.. german, scot, whatever, however at the end of the day I look back and see that my great-grandfather joined the military to FIGHT for the freedoms we have, as did my Grandfather,  my father before me. That is where I get my strong sense of "ownership" from when I think of this country.. because those I've loved and respected, like Doc, work, bleed, and die daily so that I can put "In God We Trust" on every damn dollar I want to...

Again.... I started this with little to no emotion, trying to come up with a less-hostile approach.... seems I failed on that one agian.

For those of you who assume I'm in the minority on this train of thought, I'll point to the American public as a reference to cite. Many of you remember the big fiasco surrounding the lawsuit trying to remove the words Under God from the pledge of Allegiance, which were added by presidential decree in 1954 by Dwight D Eisenhower. Only ONCE has this country ever come CLOSE to actually removing the phrase and its inherent meaning, that being in the 2002 case of Newdow vs United States Congress, brought by an athiest father objecting to it being taught in schools where his daughter went. Not knowing what to do, the courts took a recess of a couple of days to try to come up with a decision. During that time the polls that crossed the United States by hundreds of different organizations reflected a 90% affirmation of our national creed. 90% of America told that guy to go to hell... hallelujah.. thank GOD!


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with libery and justice for all" (United States Code, Title 4 if you're curious...)


UPDATE: In Reference to the comments received on this post,I did the research and came up with the following information:(if this loses you, read the comments first, then read the part below. It was too much to put into a comment, so I edited the main post and added it post-creation.

Hey Mom. Thanks for the input and for the support. Technically there are 204 "founding fathers" depending on your definition: those who signed the declaration of independence in 1776, those who signed the Articles of Confederation on 1787, and those who signed the Constituion of the United States in 1789. Of those three major foundational documents, there are 143 signatures, 118 of which are unique... meaning some people signed more than one document. Additionally the delegates who participated in the creation of these, but who did not sign are also usually considered in the list of founding fathers, bringing the total to 204.

Specifically, in reference to the Declaration of Independence, 4 of the 56 founding fathers were preachers at the time of signing. Of those 56 total, there was one Catholic (not Roman Catholic just for clarity's sake), 11 Congregationalists, 2 Unitarian Congregationalists, 26 Episcopalians, 2 Diest Episcopalians, 2 Quakers, and 12 Presbyterians.

For clarification:
Congregationalists are puritan-derived independent churches with their own ruling body, specifically a lot of Independent Baptist churches of today would be termed "congregationalist", at least those not part of the Southern Baptist Coalition.

The term idendifies a "christian" membership, though I don't personally share their belief structure, that was created in England in the 17th century as a way to break away from the existing christian denominations of that time.

The term itself comes from the Greek word meaning "elder" and it too is a Christian religion, though ruled by the elders of the church traditionally rather than a voted upon body of members elected through democratic means.

This is the belief in "the" one God, but not in the trinity of the father, son, and holy spirit as three divine entities. They believe in the teachings of christ but regard him as an exemplar, or a wise one, rather than the son of God. According to doctrine, technically Unitarians are christians, though again my beliefs personally separate them farther than they do themselves in the traditional context.

So, that means with the exception of 2 diests (individuals who believe in A GOD, but not necessarily THE God) the entire signing body of the 56 individuals was Christian and professed publicly their christian belief structure to others, including the 4 who were preachers. Rationally, this means that 96.42% of the founding fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence were professing christians.




  1. I see you did some research... :) I like the pledge the way it is, and I DO NOT think it should be changed back to the original, so you know. Now, as to how each person interprets GOD; well, you can't force someone to believe the same as you. However, we were founded to be free from persecution due to our faith, not free from faith itself.

  2. Thank you for this post. I am sorry that I can't quote all the statistics; but TJ I am sure you can find the information and post it for me. I am talking about the founding fathers that penned our Declaration of Independence. Many of them were Christians, preachers, etc. I NEVER try to force my religion on anyone;but I have tried to help you and Ray believe in ONE GOD and HEAVEN and the only way you are going to get there is by believing in HIM. I am not on a soapbox here; but so much of your first post was right on the money. I am so proud that you are not afraid to speak your beliefs and hope you continue to do so. Don't belittle anyone for what they believe; give everyone the right to believe what they want to; but always speak up for your beliefs. One more note regarding prayer in school, the ten commandments in courts, etc.; separation of church and state was NOT intended to keep the church out of schools and govements; but to keep the governments out of church affairs.

  3. ok.. I edited the post with the requested research added at the bottom.. read the entire post now to see the new information.

    And you're correct, I completely forgot about the separation of church and state angle. Well, I didn't forget it actually.. I chose not to try to hit two points at the same time, but you're right about that too.

    On the matter of Church and State, the term is actually never referenced anywhere in the Constitution, only in what we call the United States Constitutional Interpretation. It was coined by Thomas Jefferson and written to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter Thomas Jefferson says:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

    So, YES, in plain english it states that the concept is that the government has no authority to control what a man thinks, only his actions are punishable by law, freeing him to possess any moral or religious belief he may see fit without fear of punishment under law.

    Later, mentioned again by Thomas Jefferson, but primarily heralded by Madison in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, he says "no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

    To further argue your point, the supreme court has now refused to hear many cases on the matter of Separation of Church and state simply because so many people DO quote it incorrectly, just as most people do in the present. They try to use it to say that there is god has no control over government, when the author and champions of the original sentiment plainly stated that it really means Government has no control over God... good point Mom! Kudos!


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